Subject: Re: A Geneaology of the Eleven Kingdoms
From: Borgo Press <>
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 19:47:07 -0800

rebldavis wrote:
The reconstruction of the Codex lineage doesn't jive here either. (Of course not, it's tied in with the Mearan Problem.) According to the Codex the McLain sister is actually the sister of Andrew's father, Arnall. The problem with this is, that it's still a generation too late to connect the other sister with the Kincaids and the Mearans.

Rob's been alerted, so it'll be interesting to see how this problem is remedied in the paperback edition.

Dennis wrote:
I actually worked this out at one point because it bothered me, but it is possible that Alaric's description is correct (leaving aside the extra generation of McLains, which is a natural mistake for Alaric to make).

I don't remember the dates[1], but essentially Tairchell McLain's oldest and youngest children would have to be about twenty years apart. Similar to Urien Haldane's children, where Cinhil was born in 989, Aidan in 999, and Malcolm in 1008, but about five to ten years later. Loren Kincaid's wife could have been born no later than around 1000 (and probably about ten years earlier, or 35-year-old Annalind was marrying a 20 year old), and Kenneth Morgan's mother no earlier than 1010 (or she would be approaching 40 when she gave birth to Kenneth, with Arnall McLain (who had a son in 1034) falling somewhere in the middle.

I suppose we can blame the contradiction on the faulty memory of a nervous Alaric... :)

Rebldavis wrote:
I thought the same thing at first, but I've found all the pertinant birth/marriage/ death dates in the Codex and it doesn't work. Rhiryd Kincaid (Annalind Quinnell's husband and son of the McLain woman) was born in 999. Tairchell McLain, who according to the Codex would be the father of the three McLain children Morgan discusses, was born in 990, nine months and 16 days after his parents wedding. His son Arnall (Duncan's ancestor and the husband of the Heiress of Cassan) was born in 1015, 10 months after his parents wedding, so the two sisters are younger than he and born way after Rhiryd Kincaid. There's no way either one could be his mother and the McLain connection to Meara/Cassan. The only way a McLain woman could be the mother of Rhiryd Kincaid is if she were Roger McLain's sister and that puts her three generations from the McLain/Cassan connection.

I think Bro. Theo needs to recheck his sources. (Rob, you out there? I don't think I outlined the problem in this much detail in my e-mail, you may want to print this out.)


"Nothing happens in contradicition to nature, only in contradiction to what we know."
-- Dana Scully in "Herrenvolk" (episode 4x01 of "The X-files")

Dear Rebecca,

I went back to TBH and noted what Alaric actually said, which is, to wit:

"Neither Duncan's father or his grandfather had any brothers, but his grandfather had two sisters. The younger, my paternal grandmother, produced one son, my father. The elder sister also produced a son, however; and he married the Princess Annalind of Meara."

I checked with Brother Theophilus, who says, ahem, yea and nay. He points out that it is not clear to whom the second "his" refers: it could be Duncan, or his father, or his grandfather; and we should not presume to understand this conversation fully, not having been present ourselves. (I thought this a dissemblance myself, but he pointed out that the lawyers among us would understand exactly what he meant.) It is also possible that the chronicler failed to indicate the proper emphasis when transcribing the phrase, perhaps did not know it herself or merely presumed. In any event, the attribution of Alaric's grandmother as given in the Codex is correct: his father's mother was Madonna Lady McLain, the younger daughter of Tairchell Earl of Kierney. Her elder sister was the second wife of Fergus King of Howicce, and their only child was Princess Aude, who married Judhael III Pretender of Meara. Thus, it is true that at the time of the Mearan War of 1124 the heir presumptive to the Earldom of Kiernay was Ithel Hereditary Prince of Meara, who was descended thricely from Sir Roger McLain. However, with the extinction of the Quinnell family in the male line later that year, the heir presumptive then became Alaric Morgan Duke of Corwyn and his kin. Duke Alaric did make one misstatement, confusing one of the triple descents of Ithel from House McLain, which is understandable. Loren Kincaid's wife was Ayn Lady McLain, eldest child of Sir RogerMcLain. However, that line is at one generation removed from the line of Princess Aude, which thus has precedence over it.

As to the Duchy of Cassan, it has no heir in the year 1125, the three sons of Duke Fane having perished at Killingford in 1025, and the latter heritance of the McLain Family having been reduced to a single title-holder in Kelson's time, plus his cleric father. Should Dhugal perish without having sired a son of his own body, the title might return to Bishop Duncan should the King allow it, or it might revert to the Crown.

How then could Caitrin of Meara present a claim to the Duchy of Cassan? According to a by-clause of the Treaty of Uiskin, which was signed in the year 770, the two branches of the House of Quinnell retained succession rights to the other's territory should one branch become extinct in the male line, which event occurred in the year 921, when Cassan was annexed to Gwynedd; and on that occasion Austin Sovereign Prince of Meara did indeed send an official protest to King Alroy, but that monarch then being in a parlous state of health, there was no reply. Thus did Caitrin raise her pretended title to "Queen" of Meara and Cassan, laying joint claim to the Principality of Meara and the ancient Principality of Cassan.

These particulars will be made clear in the revised Codex, according to Brother T, whom I now have chained in the cellar (for otherwise no work would ever get done). When I last spoke to him at supper time, he said, and I quote: "Grumble, grumble, grumble. Thou naggest me, magister. Vulgus ex veritate pauca, ex opinione multa æstimat."

Indeed. He certainly gets crabby these days.

Robert Reginald

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Subject: Re: A Geneaology of the Eleven Kingdoms
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Back to The Mclain Problem

From: Borgo Press (
Subject: Re: Various Things...
Newsgroups: alt.books.deryni
Date: 1999/02/25

Borgo Press wrote:
Hi all!

Well, Codex 2 rumbles on.... Actually, we hope to have updates and corrections completed shortly. Again, anyone who spots anything goofy that hasn't been mentioned yet, please send it to us so C2 will be as perfect as possible. We're about 2/3rds of the way through KGL now, adding tidbits and updating as we go. ZZZZIIIIIPPPPPPP!!!!!! See! I can do it too!

Denis Trenque wrote:
I have a problem with Roschia Princess of Torenth : page 93, her father weds in 545, she is the third child, AND page 249 in the Ordo Temporum August 2 548 Lord Hoel is bord to Erispoe Count of Magne and Roschia Princess of Torenth. I don't think newborns gave birth, even in the Middle Ages. If you could correct this problem my genealogical tree of the House of Furstal would more corect.

Denis Trenque in Bordeaux, owner of Codex 449

Borgo Press wrote:
Cher Denis,

No sooner said than done.

All best:

Robert Reginald

In checking further, Roschia is the daughter of Thuring Duke of Beldour. Her brother, Furstán (III), sired a daughter with a similar name, Roschianor, who married Augarin I Duke of Haldane. Q.E.D.


Back to Roschia Thuring

Back to Roschianor Furstan