Newsgroups: alt.slack,ok.general,alt.conspiracy

Subject: Tgiving (was Re: More Government Sanctioned Theft)

From: (E.Holmes)

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 18:05:09 GMT


On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 04:10:46 GMT, in <>

E.Smith wrote, in alt.slack:

^Ostensibly, (Doktor DynaSoar Iridium) said this:

^^^^Happy Fuckyouverymuchgiving.


^Thanks alot. I guess it hadn't occurred to you that some of us have

^relatives who were pilgrims and Indians and happen to take this

^holiday pretty seriously.


Umm. I would think if you had relatives who were Indian, you'd

be celebrating Divali. However, among Native Americans, if you

are Hopi you might be celebrating the New Year. Otherwise yes,

it is pretty serious, but not in any warm fuzzy direction that

would bring you joy. Relatives of Pilgrims have their own sins

of the fathers to atone for.


I'm actually of two minds regarding the Thanksgiving holiday &

myth. On one, the idea of a time of giving thanks for all that

we have been blessed with is good. On the other, the mythology

of the grateful Pilgrims bonding with their Native benefactors

is a lie.


The difficulty I'm having is deciding whether the myth is good

or bad. Awareness of the evil that was promulgated by European

settlers is necessary in order for those of good will (you are

one, I am sure) to move this society toward stopping the evils

that continue to this day. I am not speaking of trivial things

such as whether baseball teams use Native symbols, but of real

actions against real people and against sovereign rights. See:


and this 11/27/97:

Last week, a peaceful march in Plymouth was attacked viciously

by police, ostensibly because they didn't have a permit, which

was something they'd never needed before in the 26-or-so years

they'd been holding the same march, which is done for purposes

of bringing attention to the truth of injustice. Do read link.


And in general:


Listen to Joanne Shenandoah's "Once In a Red Moon" album. And

if you can listen & your heart not break, you have not learned

what it takes to be Truly Human.


HOWEVER and this is a big "however" issue, sometimes the myth,

even when a lie, serves a useful purpose, and I think that may

apply to the Thanksgiving myth. Our children, during the years

when they form attitudes are taught that Native Americans gave

help and friendship to the early settlers, which they did. The

fact that _even in the beginning_ the Pilgrims returned hatred

is glossed over in order to strengthen the myth of cooperation

and truce. Later, as we grow, we learn of the broken treaties,

the prejudice, the arrogance of the New Americans toward those

who only wished to be left to live.


So, the progression goes:

Native American = Good


NA gets screwed

NA gets screwed

NA all get screwed again and again and again and still are, &

don't you think it's time we just STOPPED it?


"We are all related."


^I find that a teensy bit offensive, not to

^mention rude, obnoxious and boring. Maybe this is the kind of thing

^they do in alt.genius.bill-palmer or whoever it is, but that's not the

^way we do things here and I think other people can attest to that



Crossposts can make for interesting conversation. Don't jump

to conclusions too quickly. You've misjudged the DynaSoar. A

misjudgment is not a sin. Only deliberate refusal to see can

be a sin here. See .sig for clue.



^Quote of the Week:


^Gobble Gobble


I have my own quote of the week:



"Go ahead. Get trained to laugh at sincerity. When they've

managed to erase respect for it from others, they'll have

erased self-respect too." --- Doktor DynaSoar Iridium