Subject: Video fighting games

Date: 23 Oct 1997 22:01:15 GMT

From: rakownacki@aol.com (RAKownacki)

Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

Newsgroups: alt.slack

 

Ok, when i see all these fighting games in my local arcade, and i see all the

characters in them, i have one thought: "Bob" should be in a fighting game.

Really, go into the arcade, and look at, say, Teken 3. Now just think how great

it would be to play as none other then J.R. "Bob" Dobbs. Showing off his

fighting moves that only a Slack-Master can preform. Useing his pipe in the

fight, and his super move, The Stark Fist. And also you would have the chance

to kill "Bob" as well.

 

So i propose, as an ordained minister and doktor, that the Church take steps to

have J.R. "Bob" Dobbs as a charcter in a fighting game. Just think how quickly

the word of Dobbs can spread when his face is showing in every arcade in the

nation! And while he's kicking the ass of the other lame character next to

him, or getting his ass kicked. It'll be the best advertiseing manuver the

church will ever do, and it may not even cost that much to do it! So who wants

to see "Bob" kicking ass next time they step into an arcade?

 

 

'Lord' Rev. Dr. Paul Soth

http://www.geocities.com/area51/6126

Member of Dark Vale (http://www.geocities.com/area51/4065/index.html)

Kill your Tamagotchi

 

Subject: Re: Video fighting games

Date: 24 Oct 1997 16:06:52 GMT

From: c725854@sp2n09.missouri.edu ()

Organization: University of Missouri - Columbia

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1

 

RAKownacki (rakownacki@aol.com) wrote:

>Heh, heh...actually, this wouldn't be such a bad idea...all those kids

>pumping those quarters mindlessly into their late 90's jack off

>graphics-concerned beat-em-ups (yes, different from my late 80's quarter

>pumping, obviously) would get introduced to His Holy Image. I'd laugh if

>I could see "Bob" taking his pipe out

>of his mouth when some kid hits some combination of joystick pushes, and

>then he shoots deadly lightning/frop fire out of it. He could be dressed

>in a nice white shirt with a tie and slacks, looking so extremely

>different from all those other fighters...yeah...too bad none of us have

>any connections with the Japanese gaming industry...

>

>

You got it exactly. Hey, it might not be all that hard. Hell, in the game

Tekken 3, you can have one of the guys change from his him-hop spandex

danceing gear to bellbottoms, a polyester shirt, gold chains, funky shades,

and a huge 'fro. So all we gotta do is get in contact with one of these

copanies, and say "Hey, if your going to have a guy looking like he's from a

blackexploitation flick in your game, then can you have Dobbs?"

 

And think about this: 3D polygon "Bob". But who would be Slackfull enougth to

serve as the motion capture model for Dobbs? I mean, if you try useing motion

capture with the real "Bob", his powerfull aura would short the computer out.

So, are there any SubGenii fighting experts?

 

'Lord' Rev. Dr. Paul Soth

http://www.geocities.com/area51/6126

Member of Dark Vale (http://www.geocities.com/area51/4065/index.html)

Kill your Tamagotchi

Subject:

Re: Video fighting games

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:39:17 GMT

From: talysman@pacbell.net (His Most Feathered Eminence)

Organization: Pacific Bell Internet Services

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1 , 2

 

On 24 Oct 1997 16:06:52 GMT, c725854@sp2n09.missouri.edu () astounded

all by writing:

>RAKownacki (rakownacki@aol.com) wrote:

>: Ok, when i see all these fighting games in my local arcade, and i see all

>: the characters in them, i have one thought: "Bob" should be in a

>: fighting game.

>Heh, heh...actually, this wouldn't be such a bad idea...

> . . . . He could be dressed

>in a nice white shirt with a tie and slacks, looking so extremely

>different from all those other fighters...

 

this is the best part of the idea.

all the other fighters would be wearing the cliche fantasy-

oriental costumes and would have bizarro weapons, but "Bob"

would be dressed in '50s suit and tie and wield a pipe!

also: one of the easiest ways to play those fighting games

when you're first starting is to simply hit all the controls

randomly. you often tend to kick the other guy's ass this

way.

 

this in itself is a secret lesson in Slack.

but the secret of "Bob" would be that you can move the controls

any way you want; his attacks are *randomly determined*, and

his success depends on your speed -- if you just maneuver the

controls as quickly as possible in multiple combinations, he

will ALWAYS WIN. if you maneuver the controls carefully, like

you're thinking about it, he will ALWAYS LOSE.

 

Subject: Re: Video fighting games

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 03:38:48 GMT

From: arbane@soho.ios.com (Robert Bain)

Organization: IDT

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1

 

On 23 Oct 1997 22:01:15 GMT, rakownacki@aol.com (RAKownacki) wrote:

>Ok, when i see all these fighting games in my local arcade, and i see all the

> characters in them, i have one thought: "Bob" should be in a fighting game.

>

 

...and when you kill him, he just gets back up?

(And his super move: He trips and falls down, and his opponent

'accidentally' hurts themselves...)

 

A long time ago, a friend of mine (Rev. Nixxxon Fiste) & I were were

talking about this, and he told me he'd had a dream--I'd been in an

arcade trying to play the 'SubGenius game'.

 

_Trying_ to play it, because it wouldn't actually let me play; but

the more quarters I put in, the more interesting the 'attract-mode'

got.

 

(Hm. My recollection of this is a Sign. I need to stop paying and

watching, and go PLAY something. Thanks!)

 

-- "The best lack all conviction, while the worst

-- are filled with a passionate intensity." --> W. B. Yeats, on Usenet.

---Arbane@idt.net

 

Subject: Re: Video fighting games

Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 23:50:43 -0400

From: "Plain and Simple Cronan" <cronan@DeathsDoor.com>

Organization: Wierd

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1 , 2

 

Robert Bain wrote in message <345168f9.14065975@news.idt.net>...

>On 23 Oct 1997 22:01:15 GMT, rakownacki@aol.com (RAKownacki) wrote:

>

>>Ok, when i see all these fighting games in my local arcade, and i see all

the

>> characters in them, i have one thought: "Bob" should be in a fighting

game.

>>

>

>...and when you kill him, he just gets back up?

>(And his super move: He trips and falls down, and his opponent

>'accidentally' hurts themselves...)

 

I am expert on this subject I have spent more money on these games than the

GNP of several small African nation and can tell you that most of these

games, instead of going the route you suggest, are looking for more ways to

render bouncing breasts.

 

There is one in particular on Sega Saturn where you cna actually turn off

the bouncing of the breasts. Yes, it is *that* destracting.

-- Plain and Simple Cronan, Captain of the USS Megadittos <*>

THE TRUTH HAS BEEN DELCARED! LIVE IT! KNOW IT! READ IT at

http://gpgod.home.mindspring.com/declaration.html

 

 

Subject: Re: Video fighting games

Date: 25 Oct 1997 05:20:28 GMT

From: rakownacki@aol.com (RAKownacki)

Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1

 

>I am expert on this subject I have psent more moeny on these games than the

>GNP of several small African nation and can tell you that most of these

>games, instead of going the route you suggest, are looking for more ways to

>render bouncing breasts.

>

>

No shit. I saw that at my arcade as well. And that brings me back to my orgnal

point. If they can have charcters with bounceing D-Cups, they gotta have "Bob"

But at least with that new advancement in 3-D graphics, they can do a proper

"Connie".

 

'Lord' Rev. Dr. Paul Soth

http://www.geocities.com/area51/6126

Member of Dark Vale (http://www.geocities.com/area51/4065/index.html)

Kill your Tamagotchi

 

 

Subject: Re: Video fighting games

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 04:21:27 -0400

From: "Plain and Simple Cronan" <cronan@DeathsDoor.com>

Organization: Wierd

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1 , 2

 

RAKownacki wrote

>No shit. I saw that at my arcade as well. And that brings me back to my

orgnal

> point. If they can have charcters with bounceing D-Cups, they gotta have

"Bob"

 

Not possible I am afraid. Erections aren't allowed un FCC guidlines

stipulating. The Federal Censorship Commission has deemed that all bouncing

erections are to be confined to congress.

 

"Bob" surely get one when standing across from someone who was bouncing

unnaturally.... Even GPGs such as myself do.

 

Subject: Re: Video fighting games

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 09:43:06 -0700

From: "James M. Burton" <jimburtn@saga4.Stanford.EDU>

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1

 

On 23 Oct 1997, RAKownacki wrote:

> Ok, when i see all these fighting games in my local arcade, and i see all the

> characters in them, i have one thought: "Bob" should be in a fighting game.

>

There's no reason why we couldn't implement one. I'll volunteer to do the

programming (coding a fighting game is actually surprisingly simple - it's

the graphics/hardware requirements that are a bitch) if others will do the

graphics. Just think of the *draw* it could create.

 

Now, implementation issues. We're better off implementing for a personal

computer platform - then we have the Internet for distribution, a far

cheaper and less controlled medium than home arcade systems. Moreover, I

say we should start for the Mac - because it is a far more Slackful

machine, because I am better at programming on the Mac (I'm learning

Windows), and most importantly: BECAUSE THERE IS NO COMPETITION ON THE

MAC.

 

When was the last time you've played a fighting game on a Macintosh?

There's only two of them, they're both shareware, and they both suck.

Small, slow graphics, awkward moves, et cetera. If we make a SubGenius

fighting game and distribute it far and wide, every Mac user with an

interest in the genre will be SUCKED into our Industrial Strength Church.

 

What surprises me is that there are no major hardware issues (speed,

storage, etc.) why we couldn't make a Mac fighter. A 3-D fighter is out

of the question, of course, but a 2-D "Mortal Kombat"-style game is not.

We can even use Poser and what-not to have beautifully rendered fighters.

The machines are fast enough to give us a decent frame rate (somewhere in

the 12-24 fps range), and we'd compile separate versions for 68k and

PowerPC models. As for total storage size - assume an initial collection

of six fighters, with reasonable combat moves - estimate five MB for a

polygon-graphics game and 15 MB for a bitmapped game. Expensive, yes,

but no more than a Marathon.

 

Biggest issue (and I'm an agnostic on this point) is whether you want

bitmapped or polygon graphics. Bitmap graphics (the kind you're used to

making on alt.binaries.slack, which I can't post to because the Stanford

server doesn't carry it, so if someone could forward this there that would

kick ass) have most of the advantages: they are better-looking, easier to

create, and easier to program. Polygon graphics (where fighters are

defined as a set of connect-the-dot points and colored lines and polygons)

have advantages of their own, though: they have a more "electronic" look

to them, they take up much less space (each point takes as much space as

just four pixels of a bitmap), and the computer can use a process called

in-betweening to calculate frames of animation *between* the frames that

the SubG artists actually draw (they do this by taking weighted averages

of the positions of each of the points in the two frames). Two other

polygon-graphic advantages: they can be automatically scaled by any

factor, so you could have full enjoyment on the largest and the smallest

of screens (and you could shrink the size down for slower machines), and

if your machine is *really* slow, you could tell the computer to display

as wireframes instead of polygons.

 

"In that case," the SubGenius demands, "why can't we do a 3-dimensional

polygon game? Even if we don't do any texture mapping [just have solid

colors for the polygons], couldn't we implement it?" Well, the problem

isn't in the added complexity (there'd be a *lot* of added complexity, but

none I couldn't handle), but in the speed issues. Slow Macs just don't

handle this sort of thing very well - and even a half-decent image of

 

"Bob" Dobbs is going to take a shitload of 3-d polygons. You could

probably swing it if you were aiming only for the PowerMac crowd, but I

don't reccommend it - I'll bet you there's a whole shitload of SubG's out

there who are stuck on older machines.

 

"Okay, one more question," says the eager SubGenius artist. "What does

the development time/schedule look like?" Well, we have to allocate

ourselves time, but not too much time - we'd feel pretty silly if we

finished this thing a day before X-day, wouldn't we? Although my personal

philosophy is to plan my life as if that glorious day is going to be put

off - that way, if it comes, I'm in great shape, and if it doesn't, I'll

have a backup. Not very faithful, but when have you heard of a faithful

SubGenius?

 

Step one is of course to figure out what we're doing, and if we're even

doing it. Getting up an e-mail list of people who want in, getting a

clearer idea of exactly what we're producing (deciding very early on

between polygons and bitmaps, for example). Give that a few weeks -

taking extra time in the early steps pays off later. At the same time, we

have to develop specifications - doesn't have to be too broad, but we need

to get the outlines very clear. I.E. what system are we using for

graphics (if bitmap, what is the size/color depth of the images, and how

many images per character, and what storage mechanism - if polygon, what

standard? If we go with polygon, I'll need to take extra time to write

the program that allows us to create the graphics.) And would we want

a consistent style across all characters (all Poser-rendered, for

example), or a different one for each (this Posered, this hand-drawn

and scanned, this photoshopped, this photographed and Gooed, etc.) Also

what characters are we using, how many moves per character, what general

rules for attack/defense/damage, what kind of incorporation of backgrounds

(scrolling or fixed?), and so on.

 

Step two is solid implementation. My ideal dream is that each artist is

assigned one or more characters (it makes no sense to split a character

between artists), and either they do the sounds for their own characters

or someone volunteers to be Sound Guy (SubSITE has such a large archive of

sounds that this is a pretty easy job). I can work on engine meanwhile.

 

If somebody has a largish ftp site (maybe a corner of SubSITE?) where we

could store and exchange our stuff, that'll facilitate the process a lot

(imagine e-mailing this stuff around!). Time here depends majorly on

number of recruits and individual eagerness - but I can't see it taking

more than a few months at the longest. Then we slap on the final touches,

add the Sacred P.O. Box number, and we're set.

 

Finally, a few ideas for the standard I've come up with (folks who've

already had enough patience to get this far don't have to keep reading

unless they're really interested). First of all, each character would

have the following animation sequences, or some variation on this theme:

STANDING STANCE (+ WALKING)

CROUCHING STANCE (NO WALKING)

FLYING STANCE (STRAIGHT UP, OR DIAGONAL WITH RUNNING START)

ONE "STANDING PUNCH" ATTACK.

ONE "STANDING KICK" ATTACK.

ONE "CROUCHING PUNCH" ATTACK.

ONE "CROUCHING KICK" ATTACK.

ONE "FLYING PUNCH" ATTACK.

ONE "FLYING KICK" ATTACK.

ONE STANDING DEFENSE.

ONE CROUCHING DEFENSE.

ONE *SPECIAL MOVE*

ONE *FINISHING MOVE*

STANDING WOUNDED

CROUCHING WOUNDED

COLLAPSED

= about 20 moves. So we could wind up with as many as 100 frames per

character, or more - I'll have to do some calculations to find out how

much disk space six characters would take (depends a lot on bitmap or

polygon, and the size of each frame) - but it *can* be done. Also note

that "punch" and "kick" do not necessarily have to be with hands and feet

- more generally, a "punch" is fast and does light damage, a "kick" is

slow and does heavy damage. These are less moves than you get in an

arcade game, but that's the price you pay for implementing on a personal

computer.

 

Now, as far as characters, it depends on what people feel like

implementing, but these strike me as possibilities:

1. J.R. "Bob" DOBBS

2. CONNIE DOBBS

3. THE FIGHTIN' JESUS

4. NHGH

5. A YETI

6. A SEX GODDESS

7. AN XIST

8. JHVH-1

9. NUNU OR NARNINI

10. ERIS

11. G'BROAG'FRAN

12. AN ELDER GOD (CTHULU?)

13. THE WHORE OF BABYLON

14. A PRAIRIE SQUID (actually, that could be a bonus or power-up)

15. THE BLEEDING HEAD OF ARNOLD PALMER

16. SATAN

17. ANY CHURCH HIGHER-UP, ESPECIALLY STANG, GORDON, DRUMMOND, OR JANOR

(actually, these would make good *measurements* - imagine an attack doing

so many Stangs of Pain, or a character having only so many Drummonds of

Slack or Janors of Hate.)

 

Anyway, all that would be in the artists' hands, not mine. And these are

all just ideas. But if you like 'em, e-mail me so I can keep a copy of

your message, and we'll see how things could go.

Later,

|) | |) | Maker of free, high-quality Games for the Mac at

|\ev. \|ames |)urton | <http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~jimburtn>

 

 

Subject: Re: Video fighting games

Date: 26 Oct 1997 00:25:32 GMT

From: rakownacki@aol.com (RAKownacki)

Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1

 

<really cool shit sniped>

Yeah, that'll work. We got plenty of talented mac users in the Church, so it

could be done. I say bitmaps for ease of use.

 

Next question, how many backgrounds? Perhaps one of Dobbstown done by none

other then Rev. Ivan Stang. And perhaps a Devival and onboard a spaceship.

 

>Now, as far as characters, it depends on what people feel like

>implementing, but these strike me as possibilities:

>

> 1. J.R. "Bob" DOBBS

> 2. CONNIE DOBBS

> 3. THE FIGHTIN' JESUS

Hey, suppose we can film Jesus himself, take out the frames we need, touch them

up so we can use them in the game, and there you go!

> 4. NHGH

> 5. A YETI

> 6. A SEX GODDESS

> 7. AN XIST

> 8. JHVH-1

> 9. NUNU OR NARNINI

>10. ERIS

>11. G'BROAG'FRAN

>12. AN ELDER GOD (CTHULU?)

>13. THE WHORE OF BABYLON

>14. A PRAIRIE SQUID (actually, that could be a bonus or power-up)

>15. THE BLEEDING HEAD OF ARNOLD PALMER

>16. SATAN

>17. ANY CHURCH HIGHER-UP, ESPECIALLY STANG, GORDON, DRUMMOND, OR JANOR

Well, since it is people beating the crap out of each other, why not include

Dr. K'Taden Legume? And also, we can ask if Sp(utu)m would want any of there

members in the game as well.

 

Fellow SubGenii, this could be the best marketing move the Church has ever

done. So sound the horn, were doing this for the Church!

 

Too bad i don't have a mac.

 

Oh well, perhaps i can work on graphics.

 

'Lord' Rev. Dr. Paul Soth

http://www.geocities.com/area51/6126

Member of Dark Vale (http://www.geocities.com/area51/4065/index.html)

Kill your Tamagotchi

 

 

Subject: Re: Video fighting games

Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:05:18 -0700

From: "James M. Burton" <jimburtn@saga5.Stanford.EDU>

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1 , 2

 

On 26 Oct 1997, RAKownacki wrote:

> Yeah, that'll work. We got plenty of talented mac users in the Church, so it

> could be done. I say bitmaps for ease of use.

 

I'm inclining in the same direction. The only issue is that our final

program could be -huge-. Plan it this way: we need a depth of at least

256 colors, and an average frame size of, oh, at least 150x300 pixels.

Assume these go in PICT format (not a good assumption, but the most

convenient for a Mac prog), gives us 35k a frame. Give me 100 frames per

fighter and six fighters, and we have a 21 meg game! Clearely, there's a

*lot* we can do in the way of optimization, but you can see the ballpark

we're in.

 

Of course, there is an alternative way to package the file: separate the

engine from the fighters. Make the actual game (what should we call it?

Maybe "Or Kill Me" or ""Bob" Loves You" or "SubGenius Death Pit") an

application, and make the fighters individually downloadable files. At

runtime, the application scans for files in the "arena" folder, and lets

the user choose from among fighters. Of course, you keep a heavy

copyright on all this, so that only Dobbs-approved fighters can play in

our arena.

 

The advantages of this form of packaging are double: first, file-size is

less of an issue because it's in lots of separate piece, and the user can

decide what he wants to use. Second, there would be no upper limit on the

number of fighters - any SubG artist with the time and a copy of ResEdit

could stick together a fighter. We'd need at least 6 "Bob"'s, for

example, and several Jesii (a historical Jesus, the modern Jesus, a bloody

Freshly-Crucified Jesus).

 

> Next question, how many backgrounds? Perhaps one of Dobbstown done by none

> other then Rev. Ivan Stang. And perhaps a Devival and onboard a spaceship.

 

Shitload of backgrounds - each fighter should at least get his own private

background (Dobbs in Dobbstown, a Yeti in Atlantis, etc.). Backgrounds

are *cheap*, in memory and in SubG effort. We should be able to - ahem -

borrow most of what we need right off of SubSITE.

 

> Hey, suppose we can film Jesus himself, take out the frames we need, touch them

> up so we can use them in the game, and there you go!

 

That would kick ass - especially if someone got him a pair of nunchucks

(sp?) just like in the Apocryphon.

 

> Well, since it is people beating the crap out of each other, why not include

> Dr. K'Taden Legume? And also, we can ask if Sp(utu)m would want any of there

> members in the game as well.

 

Well, if we have fighters as separate files, then we could do damn-near

anyone we want. I'd even suggest implementing special "weakling" and

"punching-bag" enemies for beginners - imagine actually getting to play a

unit of Sputum beating the crap out of Enlow, or a Legume thrashing a

Pink, or an Overman whupping a Sissified version of "Bob". And when it

says "Finish Him" or better yet "Or Kill Me", you could kill digital

"Bob".

 

The disadvantage of separate files, by the way, is that you can't

implement code specific to a fighter. You could differentiate by putting

attributes in the files ("BOB" STRENGTH=2 BRAIN=0 LUCK=100), but no

special code. But I don't know how much time for individual coding we'd

have anyway, and the strengths seem to outnumber the weaknesses here.

 

> Fellow SubGenii, this could be the best marketing move the Church has ever

> done. So sound the horn, were doing this for the Church!

 

It could be a good one. "Come for the game, stay for the Church," as it

were. And we have the glorious advantage of No Commercial Competition -

for some reason, nobody associates Mac users with violence (the fools).

> Too bad i don't have a mac.

>

> Oh well, perhaps i can work on graphics.

>

Ah, but the graphics are the really hard part. All the engine does is

pick which graphic to show at a given moment and where it goes - an easy

proposition when you have only two graphics running around. Speaking of

which, someone *could* say "Yeah, I can do the Windows port" any time now.

I was thinking of Java early on (for the portability), but Java is *way*

too slow.

 

Anyway, I'm starting to like this idea more as I revisit it. I've been

itching to do a game, but I've suffered from lack of time & ideas. Have

to sit on it a while, though, especially to see what the potential artist

pool is. But the vision continues...

Later,

Rev. Jim Burton