Subject: Re: LET'S START A WAR!!

Date: 20 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT

From: "König Preuße, GmbH" <bbombere@erols.com>

Organization: Lou Minotti & the Clamsauce Enema Band

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5

 

nu-monet wrote:

 

> "König Preuße, GmbH" wrote:

> >

> > nu-monet wrote:

> >

> > > Wait, wait everybody! Let's give PEACE a chance!

> > >

> > > Okay, we did that.

> > > It didn't work. They kept PUSHING AND PUSHING. They sent SPIES to

> > > INTERFERE with our internal affairs. Everyone knows that they have

> > > been PREPARING to INVADE US for MONTHS if not YEARS now.

> > > Hey, we tried.

> > > But they are IGNORANT SAVAGES not fit to live in THE MODERN WORLD.

> > > And we need our BREATHING SPACE. Our LIVING ROOM.

> > >

> > > They keep saying that we will invade one of their neighbors, and

> > > another of their neighbors, and another of their neighbors, and yet

> > > another of their neighbors, until we decide to INVADE THEM.

> > >

> > > So they continue to oppress us.

> > >

> > > We are just striving for human dignity and agrarian reform.

> > >

> > > And equality.

> >

> > It was OK until the part about agrarian reform.

> > I actually gots 6 credits in Agrarian Reform, so, that part's funny.

> > I had a tutor for that, she had been a Maryknoll nun in Guatemala

> > for four years, until the Army threw her out for being a suspected gunrunner,

> > then she went to Nicaragua for two years. I guess that Miguel de Escoto's

> > a Maryknoll of some sort. So, she thought I should understand La Reforma

> > Agraria. She did get me an invite to a soiree at the Nicaraguan Embassy

> > where I got to meet Mrs. Chamorro, the widow of the publisher of "La Prensa."

>

> "Agrarian reform" was co-opted since the Cuban Revolution

> for leftist insurgents throughout central and south America

> by American liberals. This both detracted from the real

> reformers, and made them targets of the right-wing types.

>

> In reality, most of the "Agrarian reformers" so embraced

> were Soviet-backed guerillas who didn't give a rat's ass

> about anything but the assumption of power. If they could

> use agrarian reform as an issue, so be it.

>

> Of course, in their insurgency and if they took power, they

> showed themselves to be the ruthless bloody bastards they

> were. But then they were conveniently overlooked by liberal

> Americans, who were now focused on the "Agrarian reformers"

> in the next country.

>

> This in no way detracts from the ruthless bloody bastards

> who were the right wing governments then in power, but

> points out the longstanding rule in the southern Americas

> that when a bandito becomes strong enough, he becomes

> "El Presidente."

>

> And thus it has been since the Spanish left...

 

It sure has been that way since, "Bananas!"

 

I went to a three-day meeting of five Guatemalan guerilla groups.

There was one group, the Ejercito Guerillero de los Pobres, EGP,

that had the best philosophy. We're poor and landless, the land owners

are trying to kill us, so, we fight to survive. A simple platform.

 

Subject: Re: LET'S START A WAR!!

Date: 20 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT

From: nu-monet <nothing@succeeds.com>

Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6

 

 

"König Preuße, GmbH" wrote:

>

> nu-monet wrote:

> > This in no way detracts from the ruthless bloody bastards

> > who were the right wing governments then in power, but

> > points out the longstanding rule in the southern Americas

> > that when a bandito becomes strong enough, he becomes

> > "El Presidente."

> >

> > And thus it has been since the Spanish left...

>

> It sure has been that way since, "Bananas!"

>

> I went to a three-day meeting of five Guatemalan guerilla groups.

> There was one group, the Ejercito Guerillero de los Pobres, EGP,

> that had the best philosophy. We're poor and landless, the land owners

> are trying to kill us, so, we fight to survive. A simple platform.

 

That is a post-Cold War platform, a throwback to the times before the

East-West thing, with lots of provacateurs on both sides who wanted pawns

in their game. Now it is just us and them.

 

But what is the change, here? Other than land and money, what is the

difference culturally between the landholders and the peasants? If

you made a landholder poor, he would behave like a peasant--a peasant

rich, he would behave like a landholder.

 

What I am saying is that there is a deeper problem than just wealth

and hate. A common enough cultural sickness in the world where

prosperity and wealth are meaningless to you unless you are surrounded

by poverty and slavery.

 

When I visited Guatemala, I was struck with how *underpopulated* it

was, compared to it's vast resources. Half of the country is jungle

preserve. Do the peasants want just land that has already been

prepared, or would they be willing to prepare it themselves?; and

conversely, would the landholders permit peasants improving their

lot if it wasn't on their land?

 

In this case, isn't land reform just a taking? Or is it just insisting

that what is unused become available for those who want to use it?

 

As far as the killing part goes, I am glad that Guatemala finally

at least signed a peace agreement for a civil war that started in

1945. Whether it is a valid agreement I do not know.

 

 

 

Subject: Re: LET'S START A WAR!!

Date: 20 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT

From: "König Preuße, GmbH" <bbombere@erols.com>

Organization: Lou Minotti & the Clamsauce Enema Band

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7

 

Yeah, Peten, the east part.

 

I got a book on the shelf over here that has a funny story about

Guatemala. It says that when World War II started, 80% of Guatemala

was owned by German nationals. John D. Rockefeller, Jr. was head

of InterAmerican security at the time, and he thought it prudent to

round up all the bad Germans, and move them to Crystal City, Texas.

So, some time after the war, some of the Germans sued in international

court to recover their fincas, which dragged on a long time, but some

of them actually did get their land back. I think that the casualties

for the 30+ years of war there were greatly under-reported. Officially,

it was about 300,000 dead? I dunno. But it's a small country,

so, percentage-wise, it was brutal. Lots of gold, oil, coffee, cattle,

timber, cheap labor. Worth fighting for, evidently.

 

 

Subject: Re: LET'S START A WAR!!

Date: 21 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT

From: ebear@MI$direct.ca (gloomy bear)

Organization: essential bears

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References:1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9

 

 

In article <36F51306.3EB36A5B@succeeds.com>, like.excess@sex.org wrote:

 

> "König Preuße, GmbH" wrote:

> >

> > Yeah, Peten, the east part.

 

A curiosity I noticed while driving through El Peten in 1989: Along some

of the worst roads I've ever driven, spaced at regular intervals between

the muck, the ducks and stranded trucks, were stretches of flat graded road

used as landing strips for military aircraft. While the official reason

for these LZ's was to defend the hostile border with Belize (which

Guatemala claims as sovereign territory), their real purpose was for rapid

response to guerilla activity.

 

Despite the half dozen times we were stopped and searched for weapons by

the army, I got a sense that not much was happening in El Peten, and that

the main purpose of the road blocks was to give them something to do.

Usually the "search" consisted of looking at our passports (one guy "read"

mine upside down) and seeing if we had any american cigarettes, which I got

in the habit of offering first in order to cut down the wait.

 

I guess the landing strips, along with the practice of herding the

indigenous population into nuevas pueblas located near army bases (a la US

army in Vietnam), combined with the induction of able bodied men into a

"civilian defense force" had worked, as I saw no trace of guerillas the

whole time I was there. Ironically, a wet behind the ears Nebraskan I met

who was convinced he'd photographed real guerillas was, to say the least,

chagrined when I pointed out that what he actually had were photos of a

civil defense unit, the organization responsible for many of the murders he

was so outraged by.

 

One caution to anyone travelling through Peten: When you reach the

southern boundary, you get to met Los Forestales. Unlike the army, these

guys are not friendly and cigarettes are the last thing on their minds. I

ran afoul of these cats when they searched the car and found the Belize

licence plates I had stashed under the front seat. Fortunately I was able

to convince el comandante that they were merely a souvenir of our journey

and that the car was not stolen. Surprisingly he returned the plates, and

didn't even "fine" me for my transgression.

 

Good thing they didn't seize the film in my camera as I had several

pictures of army bases, which are illegal to photograph. These were not

taken for espionage, but as a record of the curious iconography of the

Guatemalan army, which has unit names like "Infiernos" and "Diablos"

spelled out in the popular human bone font. Skulls are a major heraldic

motif, and the larger bases have concrete guardhouses in the shape of army

boots with a helmet on top. If I can get these scanned I'll post a couple

to ABS.

 

 

 

Subject: Re: LET'S START A WAR!!

Date: 21 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT

From: ebear@MI$direct.ca (gloomy bear)

Organization: essential bears

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References:

1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8

 

In article <36F41C8D.7C8C04E5@erols.com>, "König Preuße, GmbH"

<bbombere@erols.com> wrote:

 

> nu-monet wrote:

>

> > "König Preuße, GmbH" wrote:

 

[...]

> > But what is the change, here? Other than land and money, what is the

> > difference culturally between the landholders and the peasants? If

> > you made a landholder poor, he would behave like a peasant--a peasant

> > rich, he would behave like a landholder.

 

In Guatemala, the principle cultural difference amounts to whether your

outlook and language (not race) are Ladino (Latino) or Mayan. For decades

latinization has been a cornerstone of Guatemalan social policy. The army

plays a key role here by indoctrinating Mayan recruits into the Ladino

culture. This is achieved through basic literacy training wherein the

recruit is constantly reminded (in Spanish) of how much better off he is as

a Ladino, the new loyalty being reinforced through various benefits such as

housing, health care and vocational training.

> >

> > What I am saying is that there is a deeper problem than just wealth

> > and hate. A common enough cultural sickness in the world where

> > prosperity and wealth are meaningless to you unless you are surrounded

> > by poverty and slavery.

 

Yes, it's a policy of cultural genocide. Mayans are systematically

assimilated through the above process and through the church and school

system. Issues of wealth and poverty are framed as a struggle between

communists (Mayans) and nationalists (Ladinos). This propaganda plays to

the ex-mayan Ladino and provides the rationale for hatred toward his own

people. Of course a few tribes are kept in pristine condition as a draw

for tourists and to foil would-be critics, but in general those tribes that

resist assimilation are either completely marginalized or killed outright.

 

> > When I visited Guatemala, I was struck with how *underpopulated* it

> > was, compared to it's vast resources. Half of the country is jungle

> > preserve. Do the peasants want just land that has already been

> > prepared, or would they be willing to prepare it themselves?; and

> > conversely, would the landholders permit peasants improving their

> > lot if it wasn't on their land?

 

Clearing new land is pointless if you're Mayan. No sooner do you finish

than a government official appears bearing documents proving Ladino

ownership. Peasants are evicted, and cattle moved in. (cheaper than paying

to have land cleared) The best land is owned by Ladino, American and

European interests and is mainly used for cash crops. The rainforests,

while a source of pulp and timber, are completely unsuited to agriculture.

The geology is limestone, the soil is poor and little water is retained.

One school of thought attributes the decline of classical Mayan cities to

poor soil conditions. In effect, the population outgrew the ability of the

land to support it.

 

Subject: Re: LET'S START A WAR!!

Date: 22 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT

From: nu-monet <nothing@succeeds.com>

Reply-To: like.excess@sex.org

Organization: Frontier GlobalCenter Inc.

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9

 

 

gloomy bear wrote:

>

> In article <36F41C8D.7C8C04E5@erols.com>, "König Preuße, GmbH"

> <bbombere@erols.com> wrote:

>

> > nu-monet wrote:

> >

> > > "König Preuße, GmbH" wrote:

>

> In Guatemala, the principle cultural difference amounts to whether your

> outlook and language (not race) are Ladino (Latino) or Mayan.

 

Though it's not my idea, it certainly has merit that the Mayan culture

is dead. It has no place in the 16th century, much less the 21st.

 

I don't like it either. But primitive peoples cannot coexist with more

developed civilizations. In a country with an expanding population, you

cannot farm arable land with a stick, and keep the land for long. A

great example is Chiapas--some of the best farmland in Mexico producing

some of the poorest yields. But technology is an alien concept to

the Mayan culture. It's not that they don't want to use it, it's that

it makes no sense in their culture.

 

As repugnant as forced indoctrination is, the only alternative is

extermination. They must raise their children to be Ladinos, or their

children will die out. Ladinos can adapt and change for technology,

Mayans can't.

 

The parts of the Mayan culture that can be integrated are very limited,

and it will be only a shadow of it's former self, but it will continue

to exist. Isn't that more important than our regret for it's loss?

 

Subject: Re: LET'S START A WAR!!

Date: 22 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT

From: "König Preuße, GmbH" bbombere@erols.com

Organization: Lou Minotti & the Clamsauce Enema Band

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10

 

 

 

 

 

nu-monet wrote:

> The parts of the Mayan culture that can be integrated are very limited,

> and it will be only a shadow of it's former self, but it will continue

> to exist. Isn't that more important than our regret for it's loss?

 

 

This indigenous question is interesting for the reason that the UN

just last week issued a bit about how the US should ought pay

greater respect to Indian religious beliefs. One example is free-range

buffalo, which is not a good idea from the point of view of the cattlemen,

who are morally repugnant to the Hindus and vegetarians.

 

It looks like more Social Darwinism to me.

 

There should be "Social Darwin Awards" for cultures,

like for individuals, who by pursuing archaic and atavistic

forms, are sidelining themselves out of the game.

 

I'd nominate the Shakers. I think that there are less than

a dozen Shakers at this point. Reproduction is not part

of their game plan. However, Shakers are credited with inventing

the circular saw.

 

Subject: Re: LET'S START A WAR!!

Date: 22 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT

From: "ICEKNIFE" <iceknife@lanminds.com>

Reply-To:"ICEKNIFE" <burning clean the colon of your mind>

Organization: the them

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11

 

König Preuße, GmbH wrote in message <36F67550.59B65743@erols.com>...

 

 

> This indigenous question is interesting for the reason that the UN

>just last week issued a bit about how the US should ought pay

>greater respect to Indian religious beliefs. One example is free-range

>buffalo, which is not a good idea from the point of view of the cattlemen,

>who are morally repugnant to the Hindus and vegetarians.

 

>It looks like more Social Darwinism to me.

 

 

as opposed to what human activity?

 

And why do you think engineering is the only technology?

 

> There should be "Social Darwin Awards" for cultures,

>like for individuals, who by pursuing archaic and atavistic

>forms, are sidelining themselves out of the game.

 

 

There should be sanity recognition awards for people

who decide to get out of game playing as a substitute for

being an adult, and for having some sense of self beyond

assigned character roles. Not buying into a destructive

culture isn't atavism. If you want or need validation of

you culture, ask your mom. Your neighbors don't care,

nor should they.

 

> I'd nominate the Shakers. I think that there are less than

>a dozen Shakers at this point. Reproduction is not part

>of their game plan. However, Shakers are credited with inventing

>the circular saw.

 

 

I'd nominate mainstream America, for our unfailing atavism in

the areas of political, spiritual, and social development, by the grand

adherance to the traditions of the Roman empire.

 

When *I* am in charge of EVERYTHING, I'm having all you

fuckfaced HOT coffee drinkers killed. ICED coffee is more

advanced, requires more technology, and is the RIGHT way

to drink coffee, and you anachronist luddite HOT coffee drinkers

are not survival or breeding viable. Get with my program, or

get off my planet!

 

PS: Darkies is SPAWNING. YOU are NOT. Have a nice day.

 

 

Subject: Re: LET'S START A WAR!!

Date: 22 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT

From: "König Preuße, GmbH" <bbombere@erols.com>

Organization: Lou Minotti & the Clamsauce Enema Band

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11 , 12

 

ICEKNIFE wrote:

> PS: Darkies is SPAWNING. YOU are NOT. Have a nice day.

And starving to death in prodigious numbers!

 

PS--We be fucking yo' bitches!

Subject: Re: LET'S START A WAR!!

Date: 23 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT

From: tarla@xtra.co.nz

Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9

 

On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:27:29 -0700, ebear@MI$direct.ca (gloomy bear)

wrote:

 

 

>Clearing new land is pointless if you're Mayan. No sooner do you finish

>than a government official appears bearing documents proving Ladino

>ownership. Peasants are evicted, and cattle moved in. (cheaper than paying

>to have land cleared) The best land is owned by Ladino, American and

>European interests and is mainly used for cash crops. The rainforests,

>while a source of pulp and timber, are completely unsuited to agriculture.

>The geology is limestone, the soil is poor and little water is retained.

>One school of thought attributes the decline of classical Mayan cities to

>poor soil conditions. In effect, the population outgrew the ability of the

>land to support it.

 

I'm going to start a war if you use the word, "Mayan" again. They are

the Maya people. Their language is the mayan language. They live on

Maya lands etc.

 

 

 

Tarla

you knew that

was coming

*****

I love California, I practically grew up in Phoenix."

 

-- Vice President Dan Quayle

*****

Subject: Re: LET'S START A WAR!!

Date: 24 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT

From: ebear@MI$direct.ca (gloomy bear)

Organization: essential bears

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References:1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10

 

 

In article <36f7e6b5.38388911@enews.newsguy.com>, tarla@xtra.co.nz wrote:

 

> On Sun, 21 Mar 1999 21:27:29 -0700, ebear@MI$direct.ca (gloomy bear)

> wrote:

>

>

> >Clearing new land is pointless if you're Mayan. No sooner do you finish

> >than a government official appears bearing documents proving Ladino

> >ownership. Peasants are evicted, and cattle moved in. (cheaper than paying

> >to have land cleared) The best land is owned by Ladino, American and

> >European interests and is mainly used for cash crops. The rainforests,

> >while a source of pulp and timber, are completely unsuited to agriculture.

> >The geology is limestone, the soil is poor and little water is retained.

> >One school of thought attributes the decline of classical Mayan cities to

> >poor soil conditions. In effect, the population outgrew the ability of the

> >land to support it.

>

> I'm going to start a war if you use the word, "Mayan" again. They are

> the Maya people. Their language is the mayan language. They live on

> Maya lands etc.

>

This is what comes from hanging out with Maorians.Subject:

 

Re: LET'S START A WAR!!

Date: 26 Mar 1999 00:00:00 GMT

From: tarla@xtra.co.nz

Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com

Newsgroups: alt.slack

References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 11

 

 

I suppose a drawn-out cartoon "arrgghhh" is totally unnecessary at

this juncture, correct?