Frequent Comments Received
from Christian Fundamental Extremists
I added a page to this site that I call Terrorists. There are those who think the United States deserved to be attacked and people killed for some imagined transgressions against a supernatural God. On that page I present my opinion on extremist fundamental Moslems and Christians.
I appreciate the visitors that are serious and take the time to sign my guest book, or email me concerning matters of separation of government and religion. To keep from rehashing the same old tired Christian rhetoric on why the United States is a Christian Nation, I outlined some of the most frequent comments made and my responses to those comments.
There are over 23,000 different Christian denominations. Many of those Christian denominations are of the opinion that the other denominations are headed for hell. Some Christians don't consider Catholics to be "true" Christians, or Mormons, or Jehovah's Witnesses, or Seventh Day Adventists, which don't fit the same mold that Baptists and Fundamentalists form for their churches. Then there are those wise enough to choose no denominations, because they know that ALL of the denominations have it wrong and are making up their own interpretations as they go along. In responding in the guest book, a comment to which one of those 23,000 Christian denominations would be appreciated.
Some of the most common reoccurring question and comments from Christian extremists are listed below along with my replies.
My Answer to reoccurring comments
The United States is a Christian nation.
Reply: Like it or not, we have a separation between government and religion in the United States.
Article 11 of the Treaty between the United States and Tripoli; states: "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion . . ." The Treaty of Tripoli was signed by the 2nd President of the United States, by John Adams on June 10, 1797
This country was not founded on Christianity -- so say the "Founding Fathers." Article 11 of the Treaty between the United States and Tripoli; states: "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion . . ." The Treaty of Tripoli was signed by the 2nd President of the United States, by John Adams (one of this countries "Founding Fathers") on June 10, 1797. It is often pointed out by Christians that the surviving Arabic copy of the Treaty of Tripoli does not have the phrase "the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion." That is true and the Arabic copy does not have Article 11 at all. The surviving Arabic copy of the Treaty of Tripoli jumps from Article 10 to Article 12, somehow Article 11 of the treaty mysteriously disappeared. In any case, let me remind you that the Arabic copy is not the official copy of the Treaty of Tripoli.
1). The Treaty with Tripoli was drafted in English that included Article 11.
Furthermore: ". . .all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the land;. . ." Under Article 6 of the United States Constitution the U.S. Supreme Court exercises its power over the state. "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding." U.S. Constitution Article VI
The claim that this is a Christian nation, because God is mentioned in our Pledge of Allegiance, in the Declaration of Independence, is unfounded. The U.S. Constitution (The supreme law of the land) mentions no God. The word "God" is mentioned once in our Pledge, and once in the Declaration. In the Constitution, the only mention of religion is in the First Amendment. The words "Christ" and "Christian" not only don't appear, there are no references to them in any of the above documents.
Have you taken a look at any of your coins lately?
Reply: Please define God and which of the gods the United States was founded upon? Please be specific.
FACT: The United States was founded on freedom, not God. The insertion of God into the Pledge of Allegiance and U.S. Currency did not come about until the mid 1950's. During the 1950's anyone who did not believe in the Bible God was branded a Communist. It was during the 1950's that we all lost some of our freedoms that we cherish in the United States.
Many men and some women died protecting the freedoms we hold so dear. This freedom is not just the freedom to pray, but also the freedom not to pray, or not to believe in any type of superstition. To be free of all types of superstition and to be free to think for oneself.
There is nothing wrong with someone wanting to be a Christian who believes in Jesus, a Moslem who believes in Mohammed, a Buddhist who follows the teaching of Buddha, etc., etc. Neither is there anything wrong with those seeking answers in science and applying the scientific method of examining evidence that contradicts all of those superstitious beliefs. There is nothing wrong with applying reason and critical thinking to the examination process.
Have you read the Constitution?
Reply: That one is good for a laugh. Read the United States Constitution. There is not any mention of God, or Creator in it. God and Creator were deliberately left out of the U.S. Constitution by the Founding Fathers. The assumption is only in the mind of the Christian extremist.
The words "Separation of Church and State"
"It is true, of course, that the phrase 'separation of church and state' does not appear in the Constitution. But it was inevitable that some convenient term should come into existence to verbalize a principle so clearly and widely held by the American people.... [T]he right to a fair trial is generally accepted to be a constitutional principle; yet the term "fair trial" is not found in the Constitution. To bring the point even closer home, who would deny that "religious liberty" is a constitutional principle? Yet that phrase too is not in the Constitution. The universal acceptance which all these terms, including "separation of church and state," have received in America would seem to confirm rather than disparage their reality as basic American democratic principles." Leo Pfeffer.
Reply: In using this same mode of thinking, this Christian is telling me that there is no such thing as "Trinity?" No where in the Bible does it mention the word "TRINITY."
When a group of Christians known as the Danbury Baptists asked Thomas Jefferson to explain the Constitution, he replied in a letter that our constitution that our constitution was written to erect a wall of separation between church and state, it later became an amendment to our Constitution, it is not a metaphor as the Christian zealots would have us all believe. Christian explorers went around the world forcing Christianity upon indigenous groups on major continents under the threat of death if they didn't convert, these proselytizers or missionaries had no respect for the religious beliefs of the people who already had their own religions. Talk about religious hypocrisy ! Even today we see blasphemy laws practiced in many cultures, no wonder it still stands and has gotten to be so widespread. There was a time when people around the world believed the earth was flat, but a few logical scientific people proved them all wrong. Truth does not depend on massive numbers of people accepting something, or for excess lengths of time. The Christians who are so quick to respond to criticize and attack secular freethinkers will remain totally silent when their religious cohorts attack and insult secular freethinkers. They are both liars and hypocrites. I don't need superstitious dogma to live a decent, law-abiding and good life. I don't need to be born again. Quote from my Guestbook - Freethinker's comments.
The President of the United States
Reply: That is a personal choice made by the President that is usually done just for show. No one in the United States is required by law to place their hand on the Bible or say "So help me God" when taking an oath. The personal religious beliefs of any president is just that -- their own personal beliefs. Just as any beliefs of an individual is his/her personal beliefs.
The first three Presidents of the United States were Deists: "By the end of the 18th century deism had become a dominant religious attitude among upper-class Americans, and the first three presidents of the United States held this conviction, as it is amply evidenced in their correspondence." Encyclopaedia Britannica.
"deism n. 1. Belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation (distinguished from theism). 2. belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it." The Random House Dictionary of the English Language 2nd Edition
The Deist God would not have inspired a Bible or be involved in any way with man, that is "Natures God." Deists do not believe that Jesus was the son of God, do not believe in Bible miracles and do not believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
Both Military and Congress
Reply: Chaplains were originally set up for the Army (drafted Army) and Congress at a time when these people were removed from their home places to serve the country. I have no problem with the Chaplain service in that respect. Today the Chaplain service in Congress is not needed, it is a hangover from another time. Never-the-less, The United States recognizes all religions equally and there are Chaplains for Moslems, Buddhists, Hindus and American Natives. The Satanist religion is recognized by the United States Army on the same level as the Christian religion -- none of the religions are held up any higher than another. Isn't this a great country?!
People in the United States are free to believe whatever they like, that is called freedom. It is arrogant to expect that anyone should believe something that Christian extremists do, just because they do. What anyone believes religiously is just a belief and is really no different than someone believing in Santa Clause, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn. I don't believe in the Bible God for the same reasons that I do not believe in Mother Goose. Do you believe in Mother Goose? If not, why not? That may provide you with some very interesting answers.
The place for any religion in the United States is with the individual -- not with the government, nor the community where a person is looked down upon because they are not of the accepted religion. Religion, any religion is a very personal matter. That does not mean that Christian can not practice their religion in public view. What a separation between government and religion means is: religion can not use the governments public facilities to promoted their brand of superstition.
Christianity is also a pagan religion. Perhaps it was the last pagan religion (but the first NOT to take a "live and let live" approach to competitors), and it was mixed with ancient Neoplatonism (itself pagan). It's not even really monotheistic: think of the trinity, and saints and so on. So when they claim we are a Christian nation, or they try to force us into being a Christian nation, they're really just out to turn the clock back to their preferred brand of paganism - but without the live and let live attitude of pre-Christian paganism.
What drives many fundamentalists is that their children continue to bail out of the "faith" because of exposure to knowledge beyond the fundamentalist view of the Universe. To rephrase a title of an old song, "How are you going to keep them down on the farm after they've seen Paree?" To, once they visit the city, it's darned near impossible to keep them down on the farm.
Kids who abandon the fundamentalist view frighten their parents, who may then be obliged to believe these same beloved kids, at that moment, become subject to eternal suffering in Hell-fire due to abandonment of the "faith." Damnation follows once the child embraces "the ways of Satan" (how about a belief system which gives an Evil god, Satan, virtually the same level of power over mankind as that of Jehovah!).
The natural reaction is for fundamentalists to strive to force schools to present only what parallels their dogma. Then the kids remain not cognizant of topics like evolution, Judaism, Islam, Wicca, et cetera, et cetera. Ignorant kids, unaware of knowledge other than that of the fundamentalist church teachings, would be " safer" in public school.
There is a simple equation to safety: Kids who learn nothing that deviates from the dogma = kids who question nothing about the dogma. This is a dirty little secret that fundamentalists do not like to explore or advertise.
Why do Christian extremists think they have to help their supposed god to enforce his alleged rules? Is it because their God is too incompetent to do it himself?
No one is prohibiting the free exercise of religion. The rights of the many is not overridden by the minority in religious matters. ALL people in the United States are free to practice their religion as they choose, even in a public school. Students and teachers alike may pray in a public school, silently or even in a group, as long as, they do not bother or coerce others to partake in their religious ritual. Freedom of religion is protected for both the minority and the majority. That is what the United States is all about.
Fundamental Christians believe that being armed with the word of God filters out information that does not go along with their religious beliefs. The word of God, in fact, acts very much like a mind virus that creates a dysfunction in a person’s ability to reason. It is those that are contaminated with the word of God that can not distinguish fantasy from reality, blow up abortion clinics, use airplanes to crash into buildings that kill thousands of innocent people and condemn everyone that do not believe as they do. Better yet, Donna Gore (Atlanta Freethought Society member) described religion as a mental illness. Donna Gore proposed that religion should be placed in a category of mental illness for the following reasons:
I agree with Donna Gore, this is a very fitting description of religion, indeed.
Now you can continue on to sign my guest book, or email me as you wish. I suggest an arguement with logic and reason based on facts rather than personal opinion.
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